calimac

Confusingly, Widor besides his symphonies for organ solo wrote some "real" symphonies for orchestra, at least some of which also have organ like Saint-Saens' Third does.

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I'm aware of (well, I own) recordings of two transcriptions of Franck's Symphony in D Minor, as performed by their transcribers, a mediocre one by Jan Valach on a Koch Schwann CD, and a thoroughly convincing and powerful one by the late Calvin Hampton on a Musical Heritage Society LP. (I imagine the Valach might be satisfactory, if you've never heard the Hampton.)

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I can think of a few other works questionably named "symphony":

Boyce, Eight Symphonies, Op. 2
Webern, Symphony, Op. 21
Stravinsky, Symphonies pour instruments à vent
Lalo, Symphonie espagnole

Not to mention a recently ~~released~~ escaped thing, which I haven't heard and never wish to hear.

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For that matter, what about this?

Seriously, I count Boyce's symphonies because they're three-part Italian overtures, the form from which the symphony evolved in the period Boyce was writing. I'd count Webern's if I had it, because it's for orchestra, if a small one, and I do not wish to get into Simpsonian distinctions about what is "really" symphonic. Stravinsky's work is not called a symphony (symphonies in this context is a different word with a different meaning); what about the Symphony of Psalms? Lalo is a tougher case: concertos called symphonies were actually common in the 19th century, but this is the only one that's still remembered.

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Out of respect, I omitted to mention Berlioz' Roméo et Juliette, symphonie dramatique, which is really a sort of cantata-oratorio-thingy. His most extended concertante work, Harold en italie, is of course a real symphony, in four pretty-much-standard movements, notwithstanding the viola obbligato which dominates the first three. ("Finale problem" strikes again!)

I thought about Stravinsky's Symphony of Psalms, but by jigger I actually classify it as a choral symphony. I'm assuming you have no problem with Copland #3, which saves the sonata form for the finale, or such as Barber #1, Harris #3, and Sibelius #7, one-movement works with internal symphonic structures.

And of course there is that one item I ought to have mentioned, but blocked because I have seen and heard it, probably because of its egregious awfulness as a production number in a movie that I only ever watch for the presence of a few of the performers. Its title, amazingly enough, has been re-used in more recent days for something I haven't heard and don't want to hear. There's no point in listening to likely crap when I haven't yet heard all the extant JSBach cantatas.

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Of course I don't have problems classifying those various 20th century works as symphonies. The requirement that a symphony begin in sonata form went out before the end of the previous century. Heck, the requirement that a sonata begin in sonata form went out with Beethoven!

If you're going to make an internal/quality distinction among 20th century works called symphonies, you're best with Robert Simpson's definition, which I alluded to earlier. He says a symphony requires the large-scale integration of contrasts, and on those grounds discards Stravinsky's Symphonies in C and in 3 Movements. (I don't think he talks about the Psalms.) Stravinsky himself was doubtful about whether it was fair to call them symphonies.

But he did, and they're somewhere in the ballpark, so I count them. A pop song is not in the ballpark, so I wouldn't count it as a symphony regardless of what its name is.

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Don't forget "Tommy Rogers' Tenement Symphony" (on consideration, I put quotes around the whole thing). As I'm sure you haven't, at least on those long, sleepless nights in summer. One of those things that takes the "sym" out of "symphony."

I dare say I'll keep counting transcriptions of symphonies for solo (and duo) instruments, as they were written as gen-you-wine symphonies. And I'll count Debussy's youthful symphony for four hands, because who am I to contradict M. Debussy?

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Ha! I think I beat you to posting by mere seconds, as I saw mine appear by itself and only saw yours after I got the email notice and then refreshed the page. At least I had the grace to hide it behind a link so readers would be sufficiently warned not to click through while eating.

Debussy was, if memory serves, working in Russia at the time, and wasn't it long the tradition in that country for a symphony to be written in draft for piano, and only later orchestrated? The work is sufficiently trivial that we aren't missing much by not having a fleshed-out version of the one movement he wrote. I did, however, once chide K-Mozart (z''l) for airing a single movement from "La mer," and got the response that "it's the closest thing to a symphony that Debussy ever wrote" (leaving open the issue of a classical radio station playing individual movements of symphonies and concerti), to which I responded with a reference to this work. I know Los Hermanos Kontarsky recorded it, but who else?

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Russia need have nothing to do with it. Many composers customarily write out in piano score before orchestrating, especially if as performers they're primarily pianists, which Debussy was. Berlioz didn't, of course, but then Berlioz was unusual in not really playing the piano at all.

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Yes, but my conscience is clear because I wrote it before seeing your post.

I'm not sure who, besides the Kontarskys. Some doof somewhere orchestrated it, I seem to recall. There's always somebody waiting to use what they learned in school.

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This doof.

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I'd swear when I heard it before that whoever did it was at least willing to put his name on it, but further searching hasn't turned that up. Well, that's Amazon. The concept of putting more than two names on an album really seems to throw them for a loop.

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The orchestrator's name is on it. It's the conductor. I should have specified this; sorry.

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Actually, I've never heard of Tommy Rogers or his work. If he's a pop or rock musician of the last 20 years, I probably wouldn't have.

By Debussy's symphony for four hands, I presume you're referring to the 1880 work in B Minor. This, as I understand it, was an attempt at a symphony for orchestra which never got beyond piano score, and which he later arranged for four hands.

So I'd probably count it if I had a record of it. But I don't have any recordings of piano arrangements, or chamber arrangements, of any symphonies I don't also have in their full orchestral form, so the problem doesn't come up.

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