this post may be from an impostor

[calimac]

... because I have a baseball question.

Mark Evanier linked to a video compilation of triple plays.

I only watched this past about 20 seconds because I was enjoying the first piece of background music, but just as I was thinking how a triple play is a masterpiece of teamwork, along come some unassisted triple plays.

I hadn't known there was such a thing, and I couldn't figure out how they worked from the video, so I consulted Wikipedia, and I'm still confused.

I gathered from the writeup that a typical unassisted triple play, assuming such a rare thing can be typified, works like this:

1) The second baseman or shortstop catches a line drive.  That puts out the batter, who had been running towards first.
2) He steps onto the plate at second.  That puts out the runner who'd been heading from first to second.
3) He tags a third runner.

This is where I get lost.  Who is this third runner?  Where did he come from?  What is he doing anywhere near second base?

If he was a runner who'd been on second and was heading towards third, surely it'd make far more sense by this point for him to keep heading towards third and hoping he can beat a throw which hasn't happened yet.  What would make him turn around and head away from a third baseman who doesn't have the ball, and directly towards an infielder who is standing at second base with a baseball in his hand?

Comments

[ckd]

The ball was caught on the fly; he has to tag up before going to third.

[ckd]

Actually, it's simpler than that.

The guy who was on second is already out; the third out is the runner from first. It's not a force play because the batter was out.

[kalimac.livejournal.com]

You have left me more baffled than I was before.

"he has to tag up before going to third. " I know he has to tag up; that was the second out I listed. But the fielder at second base isn't going to run to third, certainly not if he plans to outrun the baserunner. He'd throw the ball - you can do that in baseball, y 'know - to the third baseman. But then it wouldn't be unassisted.

"The guy who was on second is already out; " How? What put him out, and how did the defensive player get there? That was my original question. "the third out is the runner from first." It doesn't matter what order they come in, and indeed Wikipedia says it's usually the other order.

[supergee.livejournal.com]

By stepping on second, the second baseman puts out the runner who was there, because he didn't get back to tag up. Then he runs down the runner from first.

[kalimac.livejournal.com]

I'm still confused.

Usually when I see an out in baseball, the ball and the baseman converging on the base (either by running or by the ball being thrown to the baseman) puts out the runner who is running to the base, not the one who is going away.

[athenais.livejournal.com]

The guy on first who was heading to second base when the ball was caught is now caught between a guy with a ball ready to tag him at second and a guy at first ready to catch a throw from the second baseman. He gets caught in the middle; one or the other will tag him by throwing the ball to the one closest to the runner or simply running after him to tag him.

[kalimac.livejournal.com]

Why wasn't the runner who was on first out when the fielder tagged second? Isn't that how outs are usually made in baseball? Why isn't he out for this, and why is the other runner (who was on second) out instead? Why does he have to go back to second? He was already on second.

[voidampersand.livejournal.com]

Runners are not allowed to advance on a fly-out. They have to return to base. The defense can get them out by getting the ball to the base first. It is similar to being picked off.

[athenais.livejournal.com]

True, plus if the guy at first takes a throw from the guy at second to tag out the runner returning to first it wouldn't be an unassisted triple.

[supergee.livejournal.com]

On a ground ball, the runner on first has to get to second. If the ball is caught in the air, the runner has to get back to first and then may try to advance.

[kalimac.livejournal.com]

Runners are not allowed to advance on a fly-out.

This is changing the topic, but in that case, when may they steal a base?

[spacecrab.livejournal.com]

If there are runners on base, and a batted ball is hot in fair territory, the runners are required to run to the next base to make room for the runners behind them (including the batter). They can be put out simply by a fielder in possession of the ball stepping on a base that the runner is forced to run to. This is the basis for common double-plays where a grounder is scooped up by the shortstop or second baseman. Stepping on second base forces out the runner coming in from first base, and when the ball is relayed to the first baseman, the hitter coming in is forced out. If there are runners on first and second and the third baseman picks up a grounder, he can force out the runner from second base, relay to the second baseman to force out the runner coming in from first base, and then relay to the first baseman who steps on first base to force out the hitter.

But when a fly ball is caught, the hitter is automatically out and the "force" is removed from any runners on base. When there's no force coming in from the hitter, each runner must be tagged while off base to be put out. In the case where there are runners on first and second, they will most likely have taken a lead off the base and be midway to the next base at the crack of the bat. If the second baseman catches a line drive, he may be able to tag out the runner between second and third on his way back to second. The runner has to return to second to tag up before trying to run to third. The second baseman may then be able to chase down the runner between first and second if it's all happenning fast enough.

[kalimac.livejournal.com]

So when I see an ordinary double- or triple-play, and the fielders fire the ball around the infield to put various runners out who are advancing on the base held by the fielder who briefly had the ball before sending it off to the next guy, that runner has already tagged his earlier base?

Why can't he turn around and go back to the base again? Is he not allowed to do that once he has tagged the base, or does that only apply if there's another runner behind him? (I do know that two runners can't try to occupy the same base.) If there's no runner behind him, is he then always free to turn around, so that he then has to be hunted down on the basepath by the fielders with the ball?

[kalimac.livejournal.com]

OK, I think that's clear. This is what I expect from someone who writes computer manuals.

Combining this with Tom's comment below, about the runner having to return to the previous base if and only if the ball is caught in the air, I think I understand it.

It's also clear to me that it's a good thing I never was good enough at [imposed, PE-class] softball (assuming the rules are at all similar) to get on base at all, because I would never have been able to remember all these rules about what to do under the pressure of the game. (On defense, I just stood as far out in left field as I could and avoided the balls, because among other things I was the only boy in school who did not own a mitt.) I had trouble enough once at an SF con when I was in a trivia contest team game, and I could not figure out when I was and when I was not supposed to press the buzzer if I knew the answer.

[smofbabe.livejournal.com]

Most steals occur when the pitcher is intent on throwing to the plate. If the pitcher isn't paying attention and the runner has a good lead and is fast enough, they can sometimes make it to the next base before the pitcher realizes they're trying and manages to get the ball to the new base in time.

[spacecrab.livejournal.com]

I see from Wikipedia that I'm slightly off. I thought that if a runner is leading off a base when a fly ball is caught that the runner must be tagged out trying to return to the base. Apparently, it is sufficient simply to step on the base before the runner gets back to it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tag_up This makes me wonder why the hypothetical second baseman would attempt to make the third out by running down the guy in between first and second. It seems like it would be safer simply to throw the ball to the first baseman, who would step on the base if that's all it takes, rather than to chase after the runner to tag him out.

[voidampersand.livejournal.com]

A baserunner may steal at any time, except when the batter hits the ball.

[ckd]

If the runner from first took off at the crack of the bat, he may be most of the way to second and get tagged (for the third out) before he can turn around.

[kevin-standlee.livejournal.com]

As near as I can make it out from the video, in every one of those cases, the manger had "sent the runners," i.e. ordered the runners to take off as the ball was thrown and the batter was obliged to try to hit it (a "hit-and-run"). That means that the sequence goes like this:

1. Ball is thrown.


2. Runners at 1st and 2nd take off. (By manager orders, not because they're required to do so.)


3. Batter hits ball. (Force plays at 3rd/2nd/1st are momentarily on.)


4. Fielder catches the ball. (Batter is out. Force plays are off; however, runners must return to the bases from which they started before a fielder touches the base while holding the ball.)


5. Fielder who caught ball steps on 2nd. (Runner who started from 2nd is out.).


6. Fielder chases down and tags runner from 1st who was caught in no-man's-land, putting him out and completing the triple play. (Fielder could also have thrown the ball to 1st; however, the runner from 1st was running on the play and tagging him was easier.)

The mechanics are the same if it happens at 2nd and 3rd. The key thing (and one of the reasons it's so rare) is that the runners generally have to be on the move in order for the play to work that way. If they weren't running on the pitch, one of them (generally the one farthest away from the fielder who caught the ball) would probably have enough time to scamper back to his original base.

[kevin-standlee.livejournal.com]

The complexity here is similar to trying to think too hard about how to walk; if you pay too much attention to the mechanics, you fall over. The triple play situation is just a consequence of other rules about runners not being allowed to advance on a ball caught on the fly.

(If a runner is on the base from which he started, he may advance once the ball has been caught; you see this when a long fly ball it hit deep and caught, and if it results in the runner from third "tagging up" and scoring, it's called a "sacrifice fly," with the added element that the batter who hit it is not charged with an official time at bat and is credited with a run batted in.)